Re: Quick Clear Techniques

[rreschran]

I'm working on a carrier project at the moment and here's my challenge. Let's say I'm one of the cop's on-scene at a roll-over crash that's blocking one highway lane of a three-lane highway. And, "NO", don't ask for another lane. You're in a carrier because the agency's dispatch instructions didn't mention roll-over and the closest, fastest ETA truck to arrive was a carrier. If you're the arriving carrier operator and you are trained and experienced in carrier roll-overs, what techniques do you use to clear the lanes of this average/typical rollover in seven to ten minutes? Do you decline the call based on company policy? If you're an experienced operator in a carrier, please share with us what techniques you'll use to get lanes cleared as fast as possible? I'm not talking debris and clean-up here ... just the roll or getting the vehicle out of lanes in the best interests of work-it or move-it?    R.

[GRUMPS The Towman]

If the circumstance is on its lid and in line with the lane, Then it may be necessary to swivel the casualty vehicle perpendicular to your truck, use a roll over stick and upright it then winch the casualty back parallel with your truck for loading. If you have a shoulder to work with, It may be possible to work it off the corner of your deck but your rigging has to be just right to get the weight and the pull where you need it and you may need to use rubber wheel chocks or some other means of keeping the casualty from sliding towards you. A snatch block off the tail of your deck is a must as well. It will provide the downward pressure on the roll over stick needed to get the casualty rolling over as opposed to just sliding towards you. The picture I have posted in my post titled Quick roll over is a similar situation but I had 1-1/2 lanes to work with. Doing it in this manner I suggest getting the casualty on its side and stopping to take a look to make sure it will not hit your deck when it comes down. you do have to be pretty close to the casualty to perform this. 

[mooresbp]

Like Grumps said, roll it, get it on the deck, and get going!! Have a side puller too so can use both winches if needed.

[BlackAutoload]

First off, you suck.  You need to understand that a vehicle is longer than it is wide and we need an extra lane to clean up this mess quickly and get traffic flowing again.  

Too many variables to perform a single lane rollover with 2 lanes of traffic still whizzing by for me.  

I would load it on its top, if you were still in your power trip mood.

 

[rreschran]

Wow, BlackAL ... "you suck", is a little brutal wouldn't you think? And, since there are other comments here including mine, may I ask, are you referring to me?

 

The purpose of these posts are to learn from one another, not to attack or demean any one comment or tower's opinion. I don't know all there is about towing and I'm here to learn from other seasoned towers because I value their opinions. Yes, there are plenty of ways to work roll-overs, even if it means dragging it on the carrier's deck. Not to forget that, an officer may have safety concerns that could trump the time it takes to rig for a roll-over. Dragging a casualty on it's roof isn't the best choice and in many cases not illegal ... it does open lanes quickly and requires a secondary plan for safe and legal transport.

 

I posed the situation of "too little room to work" where another lane wasn't available asking, what other techniques could be employed, like, something simple by parking in-front of the casualty in a T-position, rolling the vehicle in its length, spinning it in its length and then loading it on its wheels if there's time. I too know that there are too many variables for the question posed; that's why I'd like to know what you and others do to conduct the fastest roll-over using a flatbed carrier.

 

But, thanks to your response and others as they do have value to my project.     R.

[BlackAutoload]

Yes, you said you were the cop on scene. 

 

[GRUMPS The Towman]

WOW......To each his own I suppose.... I can tell you that I would NEVER load a vehicle on its roof for ANY reason what so ever. I dont care who or what ANYONE says. The Chief of police could be there asking and it would not matter to me. Ultimately I am responsible for that casualty vehicle and ANY further damage incurred. I am the RECOVERY professional on scene, So i will dictate how it will be performed. I dont tell the police  or fire how to do their job so I will be damned if they are gonna tell me how to do mine. I will work in the situation and parameters that I am given with no complaints but I dont need any advice from the officer. If it comes to the Officer being on a " power trip " as it was stated then I would leave the scene and drive right to the police dept. to file a formal complaint against said officer. Unfortunately, I feel like this is getting off topic here. 

[TowZone]

In the end we deal with so many variables that the situation dictates the course of action. I find it disturbing the number of light duty operators that do not assess the situation prior to addressing the recovery. As I do the number of drivers that park their truck away from the vehicle to be towed and walk up to the scene when the scene was ready for them to position their truck to load the vehicle. This all comes down to training and the industry as a whole is not ready for any type First Responder Designation. My comment is based on numerous factors.

 

As for the rude comment, that is out of context here in this venue. I am assuming that there was some sort of misunderstanding that we can resolve quickly. It may be that we are not on the same page, my response may have even gone in a different direction from the original direction of this post.

 

Let's Talk About It further, since that is how we learn from one another.

[GRUMPS The Towman]

Of course every situation is different. Given the basis of what Mr. Resch  described as the scenario Is how i would have handled it. Everyone has a different prospective as to how a situation should be handled and of course different ideas of how to carry them out. Although I dont always agree with the ways another Operator would perform a particular recovery doesnt make it wrong. My opinion is just that. My Opinion. That is the beauty of our industry is that there is no text book. Our minds are the greatest tools we can bring to a recovery scene. there are a million ways to reach the same outcome. I agree 100% with tow zone that too many Operators get caught up in the moment, pull up and start flinging chains and winch lines before they even glance at the situation. I was guilty of this in my younger days and my partner to this day is that way. Drives me nuts. In my region we dont have what you guys on the west coast and major metro areas call quick clear requirements. Yes of course Pd wants the roads/highways cleared as fast as possible but I see on the west coast there is actually stipulations for it. Ive seen videos of California highway patrol cars pushing rolled over vehicles off the roadways with the bull bars on their cruisers. Even down in NYC they have Wreckers called "tunnel rats" with massive push bumpers on them to just shove wrecks out of the tunnels and off the bridges. When an Operator replies to a scenario posted on here they will obviously picture in their minds doing the recovery scenario in their region. I feel that Mr. Resch is looking for all types of responses and ideas to his scenario for his research. 

[fenderbendr6]

As stated in previous posts, every situation is different, and there is really not enough information here for me to say exactly how I would perform this recovery. I will say that, after surveying the scene, I would formulate a plan, discuss it with the officer in charge and the other first responders on scene, and get it done. Best case scenario would be if the casualty was in the right lane with some shoulder to work in, but we have to adapt to whatever we are handed.

[rreschran]

OK ... BlackAL ... got it ... no harm no foul. There's much truth to say lots of cops don't play and won't allow for extra lanes. Thats just ups the stakes making for a great challenge in an operator' ability and techniques. I personally train our California operators the techniques of cramped quarter recovery especially when LE doesn't allow for extra lanes. I guess most of us agree that training is key to not having that extra space.     R.

Edited December 28, 2019 by rreschran
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[rreschran]

I solidly owe BlackAutoLoad an apology. Because in my opening post, I set the tone to suggest I was the hard-nosed, uncooperative cop who wouldn’t allow for extra lanes, I realized that (as being that cop) perhaps my ability to listen to the tow operator’s needs, failed to fully understand what was more important to the goal of getting lanes open as fast as possible? Nearly all of my experience in law enforcement and as a tower comes from working in big-city environments where there's a more direct expectation that you work recoveries with the limited space there is. I do remember that working in rural locations, available space isn't necessarily an issue. But, no matter where the wreck is or what the degree of difficulty is, a cop on a power-trip doesn’t help if there isn’t a solid recovery plan. Ron, I think the, “you suck”, comment wasn’t derogatory or defamatory towards anyone, but rather accurate if you’re that tow operator looking for room to work? It wasn’t a personal attack on anyone and I personally learned a great deal in which to apply to the Quick Clear environment, or any scene where there are limitations. To that, I have egg on my face.

 

BlackAutoLoad’s comment was spot-on in the broad-sense of the situation I offered. I agree that my (the cop’s attitude) DID suck. I offer BlackAL a sincere apology for thinking his response was negative or aimed towards me or any one person in these posts. Having taken the human element out of the equation, I realized that an (assumed) attack wasn’t on the cop as an individual, more so, the cop’s unwillingness to provide more lanes. Are there other reasons that lanes can’t be provided to the tower? Possibly … but, ultimately, the officer-on-scene or the Incident Commander has ultimate say in the overall recovery plan.

 

There’s a lesson to be learned here for us towers and the law enforcement community. From both sides, clear and open communications are important between officers on-scene and tow operators. Working highway or inner-city incidents of serious nature require that responders work together. The process of, “open communications”, creates a balance of understanding, trust and team-building. On the tower’s part, all reality says that keeping traffic flowing is the strong intent of Traffic Incident Management. For light-duty responders, if an officer-on-scene can’t/doesn’t/won’t provide extra lanes for your recovery plan, especially when you’re working with a flatbed carrier, it’s time to pull-out your best techniques for tight-order truck positioning, winching and vehicle re-positioning. That’s where training and experience steps-in with a solid Plan B. We know that upside-down recovery isn’t a favorite technique, but, do consider that there could be solid reasoning for doing so.

 

Here’s hoping this bit of narrative returns this topic full-circle to continue to learn what tower’s do when they aren’t allowed extra lanes? Yeah, sometimes a cop’s response of, “No extra lanes”, does suck, but that’s the reality of what we do. Another comment (I read) herein will soon initiate another important area of operator focus as it regards dealing with a hard-assed cop’s on-scene. Regardless as to what side of the fence you sit in working with the cops, I believe understanding the big-picture of Quick Clear, or time-efficient recovery, is based on open communications and the tower’s ability to bend with the proverbial wind. I also believe, in-working for and with law enforcement, it’s a professional operator’s job to follow the officer-on-scene or the IC’s commands and instructions. Better yet, tower’s, don’t be afraid, or too silent to offer solutions or alternate recovery techniques when you know something is potentially dangerous or sketchy. If there’s another way to meet the goals of safe, efficient and speedy recovery … speak-up and let your plan known.      R.        

[TowZone]

In Response to the comment "hard-assed cop’s on-scene".

 

Do you know where that attitude came from and who caused them to react in such a manner to the tow truck operator?

[rreschran]

If your asking me Ron ... these attitudes and flippant comments aren't something new (about hard-assed cops). Comments like these come from towers that I've personally heard over my years of business and thirty+years teaching tow classes and seminars. You asked, "Who caused towers' to react that way", is a response that comes from being yelled at, told you're not working fast enough, or from an officer's mis-understanding that sometimes a recovery scene can't be contained in a single lane of traffic. Wouldn't you agree? Up until TIM came around, towers and their needs weren't addressed. They still aren't in some locations.

 

Just like every tower remembers that, "Car from hell", scenario. Merriam Webster's Dictionary defines the term, "Hard-assed", as, someone being, "a tough, demanding, or uncompromising person." I'm pretty sure that each of us, including you, has dealt with an upset, demanding, or pushy cop on-scene. I can I remember several undeserved, "ass chewing's", from the boys in blue. Tomato Tomatoe ... at some time in every tower's career, there will come a time when they'll have to deal with a difficult cop on-scene, especially when a scene or incident isn't working to their time requirements or their perceived recovery plan. I've been there as a tower AND, I've been that demanding cop on-scene when my expectations of tow operator proficiency wasn't met. I personally think this all goes back to expectations, perceptions and the lack of open communication.     R. 

 

 

[TowZone]

In all my years there is one contributing factor. That is the relationship between the Tow Operator and the Officer. When they call and I show up on scene then the recovery and transport part of the incident become my scene. HATS is a great video which should be mandatory for every professional responding to these scenes. The officer knows when I show up I know what I am doing and sometimes ask how they can help. Most often they just wait to see if I need any assistance, they know I will ask.

 

The problem the tow industry has is a high turn over of drivers which are rarely trained in the proper manner to respond to a traffic incident. This has often lead to officers assuming all tow truck operators have the same mental skill level and that causes skilled drivers to get that same attitude. I try to explain to drivers. Keep your month shut, go about your duties and get out of there. While there is times when chit chat is appropriate, it is not in the middle of an active traffic scene.

 

A Professional Demeanor and Approach will go a long way in being treated as a Professional. That's how you get treated like First Responders and that seems to be the reason a large numer in the industry desire to be referred to as a First Responder. As though just putting a label on it changes things, it doesn't...

 

In conclusion: One Bad Officer or One Bad tow Operator can make all look Bad. If I encounter an Officer with an Attitude I generally just take it their having a Bad Day. I have those too, we all do...

[rreschran]

While training is a key issue, I believe the industry's root problem is that of low pay, long hours and no benefits required to attract potential long term, qualified applicants. When these components are missing, and then combine them with the dangers tower's face, how can that EVER be attractive? The high turn-over rate is indicative to the industry's status that can't be anything more than a transitional job until something better comes along. Beyond the issues mentioned, training the RIGHT individual goes a long-way in bettering a tower who is happy and satisfied in their work.    R.

[goodmichael]

I would use the exact same strategy that Grumps detailed. I rolled a full size suburban using the driveline as a rollover stick some years back. Rolled over smooth as a hot knife through butter. 

All situations are different. I used to carry an Echo PB210E leaf blower in the truck to clean debris. Had an officer complain about the dust once told him to get ppe or shut his eyes real tight and get out of the way!

[mooresbp]

Just returned from a rollover on the interstate where the suv was rolled onto the passenger side in the left lane next to the median. LE had traffic moved to the right shoulder and just turned around and backed up the the suv that was 90 degrees to the lane, pulled it straight down to its wheels and winched front end back to the bed and on with out moving the truck. Gone in less than 15 minutes. Rescue had road swept and loaded in suv and helped me tie it down and we are gone.

[rreschran]

Hey Mooresbp ... Nice job and a solid explaination that'suseful to my project. May I ask ... from the original call from ISP ... did the ISP request a wrecker, or, did they mention anything about the SUV being rolled? Information from the highway patrol to tow company dispatch is critical in responding a recovery truck, but if they don't ask for it ... they won't get a wrecker. My policy is, unless specifically requested, we dispatch a carrier with a trained operator ... no new drivers, especially in situations where dollies, debris, no tires or wheels, etc., are components of quick clear. Additionally, each carrier is equipped with additional 50' foot roll of spare cable stowed in an old dolly tire and 100' foot spare cable in a Honda space saver tire (rims removed). When casualty vehicles are typically light-duty size, recovery with a carrier is easily handled within seven to ten minutes. Our drivers each receive extensive, "hands-on training", in carrier recoveries to include roll-overs, using a stiff-leg like mentioned by GoodMichael, upside-down loading, tight-quarter situations, and how-to-spin a casualty vehcile into loading position, just as Mooresbp explained, especially to be ready when the officer on-scene doesn't allow for additional room. As Mooresbp described your recovery, you described the basic -positioning where additional lanes weren't required. Your fast and efficient recovery is because of your training and experience. Thanks guys for your input. The downside of doing it quickly and efficiently are those tow companies that continue to send drivers who aren't trained. At some point, an officer on-scene get's mad only to order the inexperienced tower to, " Just drag that F*&%#%$G thing on the truck." That sends a really bad message of incompetency and spurs a bad-reputation.      R.

[mooresbp]

LE called us before anyone on scene because of reports the roadway was blocked. Only info was suv on its side in traveled lane.

[GRUMPS The Towman]

Excellent work !!! the way you handled this job is in essence what i was trying to convey in my original post. I always enjoy hearing of successful carrier recoveries being a carrier kinda guy myself😁