TowZone

06-20-13: tnttowingbradenton wrote, we are up to about 5 a day hope more come. towtegrity said: You give them the lowest rates possible and then they ask you too cut them in half. When we signed up for NSD they made promises of all of these calls we were going to get...Needless to say they said the only way we would get them is if we cut our rates in half. Good luck! ESC said: Lower your rates is the only way.... until someone cheaper comes along. NSD used to send us alot of work... and had a great rep that we heard from often. Now, haven't heard a thing from them in a long time. advancedtowingofwa said: I just signed up with them so far 3 calls in a month I made my rates. I am sure I am not the cheapest. So far they seam to be easy to work with and pay fast. NationalAutow said: If you are working with rates that allow you to make a decent PROFIT, then stay there. If you lower them for volume, it will come back to haunt you. If you do not believe me, see a gazillion previous posts by others on tow411.net. They can't all be wrong! Towtegrity said: I guess we have a new NSD rep for PA and within a day of posting my response he contacted us! He seemed geuinely interested in fixing the situation and was nothing but nice! Thumbs up for NSD! NSDrep1 said: As with all and any rate issues, we aim to ensure that our top providers receive calls, Our criteria is such that we demand a high level of acceptance as with most organizations in the same field, however it is not the only means of ensuring those who accept a majority (over 90%) of calls receive our business, Competitive rates are important, we dont expect everyone to be the cheapest, we expect the BEST at a comparitive price within an area that we know the average rate price for the various available services on offer. You are a business, We are too and we are looking at ways to improve our relationships with providers like yourselves and everyone like you all over the country. We stand by our payment process as THE best around, We stand by our Regional Field Managers being available for YOU to help resolve any issues, but understand this is a two way street, we understand that there are unscrupilous providers and organizations out there, we are not one of those, You give us a competitve rate and accept 90% of our calls and we will certainly want to ensure we grow and maintain that kind of relationship, however not all providers when committing to accepting dispatch calls from us can for whatever reason maintain that required acceptance rate. Feel free to discuss any issues with myself direct at 1-800-338-2680 x 284 David Jones - Network Provider Manager - NSD ffhop said: Called yesterday left a message, pa rep emailed me in morning saying he just missed me(heard that before..), I called 4 times today in which each time went to voice mail. Really... come on, do your job please... nsdrep1 said: We are preparing to go to the Tow Show in Baltimore tomorrow, so some of the reps have been off this week i Please call me direct on 1 - 800 - 338 - 2680 x 284 I will deal with any issues you have. David Jones - Network Operation Manager - Nation Safe Drivers nsdrep1 added: Steve, As I understand it, Gary upon his return to the office called you back this morning, correct, just wanted to make sure you got a reply to your call and that we got everything sorted you had an issue with. ESC said: I have been back and forth a few times with the Pa Rep, Gary Fader. He has been great to work with. Gets back to me usually same day, last week it took him a day to reach me, but i know he was preparing for the tow show from what he told me, so i can understand. But NSD has been the BEST at being able to reach my rep. No other club comes close for us in being able to reach anyone. The down side it, the very very low amount of work from NSD. We have had 1 job from them in the past two months. Our rates are set to retail with them, so when they call, we will go... no issues. They tell us up front what the miles are calculated at, and the pay rate, so we know before we roll a truck. We have great luck with them, just wish we could get alot more work from them. nsdrep1 said: Please call me on the number above lets look at everything to discuss this issue, thanks ESC said: I got a call again from Gary this afternoon.... changed our coverage map around a bit, and gave us some info on some new clients they are working with in the near future... so i am hopeful that their client base will grow in our area and we will get to do alot more work with them. They are very easy to work with, and they actually care about getting the best service for their customer. KOENIGS said: I wish they would call or Email me back... Used to be Same Day or first thing the next. We moved to a location 80 miles away and Emailed / called every addy / number we had. 2 months and no contact back. Just unable to change our location and coverage map. KOENIGS Added: 72 SECONDS and we got a call. Thanks NSD, yall continue to be the best. KOENIGS Towing and Recovery in Savannah TN, and surrounding area. Oldtow said: I can't remember how long we have been with NSD, but we receive very few calls from them. Perhaps they just don't have that much business in our neck of the desert, but I must say, whenever their dispatcher calls they are always fairly accurate on the millage. We are not the cheapest dog in the fight for business, but we always go way out of our way to take care of their customers, as we appreciate their courteous dispatchers, and their business. I sure hope that we get more business from them in the future, thennnnnn maybe we could kiss Agero goodby Rick Cowboy For All My Life Wrecker Driver To Make A Livin Cowboy Preacher by Calling ! ffhop said: We have been working with PA rep, and managers, since last post. Sorry for frustrations if takin as such. Looking forward to continuing our relationship. Have a great holiday to everyone, from everyone at Godshall's Auto Service.

4th in a Series of Safety Discussion Images sirknucklehead said: Are you serious?... Who would tow that this way? Is this something staged or did you actually see this one in progress? mooresbp said: I think that should be on a landoll. Don't think that should be on the road like that, and I don't see any tow lights. Tow_Zone said: I am now into images that are being sent to me via email. I am not at liberty to divulge the source of the images or the member would have posted them in Good Bad and Ugly themselves. Speaking of GBU, some images may be taken from old posts if I run out of what I have. Thanks kunes towing said: was this a Repo? If so... its very hard to repo using a landoll... Would I do this? no... but I dont know the story of the tow/repo. Could be they grabbed it and took it to a spot where they had the proper truck. Towgod46 said: Maybe because they had the two one- tons there, that would be just as good as one MD duty. It's that new wrecker math there teaching kids these days. LoL. Using old wrecker math take the two one- tons add in the rain and it equals one big cluster ****. rlc4523 said: tires too big for straps and have no capture on the tires with the arms and the auto forks don't have chain hooks to at least chain the axle to the cross bar. I hope they are only moving it to a better location in that lot. We have a couple of those big "over compensating for something" trucks around here that we tow occasionally but always on the back of our MD from the front on the wheel lift with the drive line dropped. We strap the tires and chain the truck down and then also put our safeties on. Even if they would fit width wise on our FB they are too high going down the road. NationalAutow Said: Looks like a good poster picture for: Just because you can - Doesn't mean you should Towgod46 said: Been thinking about this, now at 55 I know I wouldn't do it. If I'm totally honest. Go back in time to 1978 and I had all that machismo, mouths at home to feed, not wanting to be the one that got sent out and couldn't get the job done. I most definitely would have done it. I've lucked out have never had a ticket or accident in a commercial vehicle. Not saying it is right. The repo companies don't care much HOW you get it just get it. Silverhawk said: Is a 22 foot rollback with a 12,000 deck. Roll on, four point tie-down and bring it home. Don't know about the height, but looks like a 13'6" load to me, loaded. iqmech said: honestly my first thought when I saw that picture was: IS HE INSANE???? no way would I touch that thing with a light duty. and in all honesty I really hate dealing with those highly modified vehicles to begin with. George Geissinger said: Do you have one of those tapes too that just keeps repeating itself after 13'4"-13'6" ? hti said: I wish I had taken a picture of the mid 90's international rollback I saw yesterday with nothing on the bed and a 20ft Toyota motor home on the wheel lift. It was sitting at a caseys store getting ready to pull out on the high way. What are your thoughts on what it weighs I would bet under 10K. It would fit on a 21ft bed with regular tires. those wheels and tires will make a lot of height difference but not much in length Tow_Zone said: It has been years since I put one of these on a roll back. It felt really top heavy and if I had to turn to quickly or maneuver to avoid a hazard I think it might roll the truck. Anyway you look at it, even though we did it 10, 20 even 30 years ago. Today it cannot be justified even for a short move. Far to much risk involved. Dave Lambert said: As others have said, we don't know the whole story but...the tires are sitting on the wheel lift, not in it. There's only a small chance straps would keep the vehicle on the wheel lift under moderate to heavy braking even if you could strap it. When we were doing "panic stop" testing for the AAA Towing Manual, we've seen properly secured light-duty cars jump out of the wheel lift during extreme braking because the straps stretched so much. 21' flatbed would handle the job. Crackerking said: it looks like there is a strap on the bottom of the tire. maybe its running through the rim. Just my 2 cents rlc4523 said: Weight would not be an issue for a standard 450/550 recovery truck or 550 RB and of course any larger RB but the Wheel size, Lift height is what gets you in trouble. I would agree with Tow zone that with that thing on the RB a hard turn would feel really sketchy being the center of gravity would be extremely high. Also it depends on that trucks suspension how well it would ride on a RB if the suspension is really soft it would magnify every move you made making it worse. Leave it on the ground and tow it with a MD

04-08-05: stevo wrote, I've probably changed a few hundred tires but not a lot of Mercedes. Well, I did over $800.00 in damage by using the lugs from the flat tire. I didn't know that there are special (shorter) lugs meant for the spare. She drove about 10 feet and I knew there was a problem. A very loud problem. I got the manual and saw what I did wrong. BUT WHY????? isn't there a sticker or some kind of warning on the spare? NOPE,,,they are in a little baggie with the jack ( I hardly ever use the customers jack) And it was a full size spare too. Its the first damage Ive done in years and Im Pissed. Are all Mercedes like this or just the C series? Steve - Choice Towing & Recovery - Fredericksburg, Va Schu said: I believe its only 1 model that has that ( the one with the funky center caps ) and from what I remember on the couple I did was that there was a sticker on the bolt holding the spare down and the lugs where with the tire tools. Stevio replied: There wasnt a sticker on the spare, the only clue was in the owners booklet. This sounds like something at least one of the MCs would have warned us about. What a stupid design. Steve - Choice Towing & Recovery - Fredericksburg,Va Topquality said: Steve, Please enlighten me on the year and model so I can let my driver's know. I haven't heard of this and we have changed quite a few BMW tires. I hate hearing of any damage claims like this. Damn BMW's - Steve Don 29 yrs aka THTDon said: Are you sure that the wheels on the car aren't aftermarket wheels? Usually, factory-installed custom wheels use the same lug nuts as the spare timre does. I have noticed that if a car has those old Crager SS chrome wheels (yes, I am dating myself here!). the lugs have washers and go through the lug holes like a sleeve, whereas the original nuts shoulder against the wheel. Towie said: A lot of Mercedes have them too, particually when they are fitted with a space saver tyre as a spare... The normal wheels have a great rim track as the the space saver almost none... It should have been real hard to do up the wheel nuts I think because on a normal lug, the thread gets larger as it goes in to lock the wheel to the car... (So it doesn't fall off) I know this as we tow a lot of Mercedes, BMW & Jag's that customers changed theown wheels and did what you did... Stevo said: My apologies gentlemen, I was a bit tired after along shift and I put BMW when I should have typed Mercedes ( at least I got the C series right ). I dropped it at the only dealer here that does work on the Mercedes and its a BMW and Volvo dealer. When I get to work Ill dig out the invoice and tell you the exact year. Steve - Choice Towing & Recovery - Fredericksburg, Va Nick Ovenden said: Guys, The Mercedes C Class and E Class have ally wheels and a steel spare. The bolts are too long for the steel wheel. We were issued a memo from the Merc dealers and the motor clubs that cover them. I guess we have a lot more of them than you do over there. Sorry to hear you had a problem.

Welcome the Owners Den is now a Club Level Forum and can be found in clubs. This forum is temporary and was create as a portal for members seeking access to the new Owners Den. The supporter requirement has been reinstated after several years, however some senior members may find an invitation to the Club as it grows. Note there are other Club Level Forums such as WreckMaster "member must provide info to access" Does not require supporter level membership to request access. RBU (Recovery Billing Unlimited) "member must provide class info to access" Does not require supporter level membership to request access. Tow411 Alley is a Senior Member Group or Club - "By Invitation - Criteria is yet to be set" Drivers Lounge - Any driver member can request access to the Drivers Level Club. Members cannot request access to both the Owners Den & the Drivers Lounge. There is not supporter requirement, however proof of driver, dispatcher, etc. is required. Keep in mind these are Club Level Groups, some may have a forum associated with them and some may not.

Yes, the supporter status is being set as well as number of posts. The supporter status will permit the Patron/Sponsor to list equipment and access supporter level forums. Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Tow411 the message board is being phased out. Tow411 the Towing Information Network is the Parent to TowForce, TowTruckShopper, TowCareers and Tow.Photo along with other Towing & Recovery related sites yet to be developed. In the end this is just Tow411 2.0 and the new name reflects on the New Force in the Industry.

In order to recognize members who held a specific screen name on the old message board. In all fairness "Screen Names" will be based on seniority. I know all members will understand this action and should the need arise a new screen name request will be sent to the member will less time in the Tow411 community of forums. In many cases the member with more seniority may choose to select a new screen name. However many we know are member specific, just as mine is to me. This window will expired 90 days after the member has selected the screen name.

10-08-02: Unknown Member, How do you determine when a customer you are dealing with is a danger or not? I don't mean just a danger to others,but also to themselves.It seems I have been dealing with more and more people that have definite personality disorders and other mental problems lately,(no offense meant Moose) and I am having trouble on where to draw the line as far as calling the authorities or not. Yesterday I had to go tow a van for Geico Insurance,the owner of the camper told me "I heard people with power tools under my van as I slept last night,and now this morning my reverse doesn't work" I repaired her broken transmission cooler line and took her to nearby service station where she could get more fluid. She burst into tears at one point and said she didn't know why people were following her and sucking the transmission fluid and coolant out of her van,(she also had a leaking waterpump).She had South dakota plates and I really had to wonder if she wasn't possibly a missing person. What do you do in these cases? Lee Fredstowingnj said: I had one of them customers with Mental problems this morning.Police called at 3am for a disabled car out on the highway.I get on scene customer is requesting i tow the car 55 miles to his home.I tell him its going be $xx.00 hook up and $x.00 per mile and we don't accept checks.customer says no problem.I load car he gets in truck we go do the road a little ways and he turns my radio up and starts singing.So we get to his house i tell him its going to be $xxx.00 he aid ok write up the paperwork.I write up the bill and hand it too him he says thank you and have a nice night leave the keys in my car.I said excuse me sir but you have to pay me he says well i'll just send the bill into my insurance company and they will pay you.He said i have no money.I say no sir it doesn't work that way i have to be paid before i unload your vehicle.He says ok let me go get ym check book.I said no i don't accept checks.he goes in the house and comes back out with a check.And starts yelling at me calling me all kind of curse words.Goes back in the house his wife comes out and asks me why the tow is so much.I said it was 55 miles.She said well where was my husband broke down at.I told her and she had no clue where it was.Her husband told me he was on his way home from work.The wife said he doesn't work.I was all confused.This guy was about 12 cans short of a 6 pack.Anyone i got my money in cash.and got home at 5 30 am wow am i tired.Fred Koch,Jr. jackmaster said: We have this problem here. One of my drivers got stopped by a nude man on the interstate, walking down the fast lane at 2 am. My driver called st patrol and then tried to keep this guy from hurting himself or any body else. When asked his name he said it was Jesus.

Mark Salentine of Ray's Towing, Inc. job is beyond dangerous

01-16-05: Marek Gdansk wrote, Hello everybody !!! My name is Marek and I work with my partner Maciek in our company - HOLSERVICE. We work together since 15 years 25 ! hours a day and 365 day a year. I think we must be crazy to love this job as you are Maciek started connect with you 2 weeks ago ans shows you some pics. with our tow trucks. Best regards from Gdansk from Poland Auto Rescue said: Welcome to the forum...John R. Doug Fitzgerald said: Hello Marek, Welcome to Tow 411. Nice to hear from towing operators from other parts of the world. From the pineywoods of East Texas Doug datowman said: hello marek and welcome to the forum. Stay Safe John wonderboys said: Hello Marek, Welcome from East Texas. John buggage said: And welcome from Virginia!! Wow, Poland...that's cool!!Regards, Jase Tow1238 said: Howdy and welcome. Maresco motors said: Welcome from New Jersey. Dennis Bigberthastowing said: Didn't know e-mail could go that far. Ain't it amazing? Welcome! Thomas Be safe and always watch for oncoming traffic while roadside. Stevo said: Welcome...From Virginia,,,:Your going to love this site. Tow Long And Prosper MNPOOL said: Marek: Hello & Welcome from West Texas

There is finally a News Story which has been added above. Our Thanks to courtesytowing for getting this Tower Down to us so quickly. http://www.wtok.com/content/news/Local-tow-truck-operator-killed-on-the-job-on-I-59-470014983.html

Thoughts and Prayers, we'll be watching for a news report.

NationalAuto said: Which problem first? Appears to be a light duty carrier with a 10 or 12K bed and standard wheel lift likely rated at 3500 or 4000 pounds. Any or all of that is a problem while towing this RV Also, nothing on the bed in the way of a counter weight. Some bed manufacturers tell us NOT to tow w/ wheel lift unless bed is loaded. I bet stopping this is a bear. And I only see one light duty safety chain that I can see. I see no light cord so it is either out of view or they are wireless, I hope. Did they pull the drive shaft? Looks like axle shaft on this side has not been removed, ie: no oil I can see. To their credit, the one wheel grid I can see does have a strap. Few towers in this area are aware that straps are required. RLC4523 said: Just because you can doesn't mean you should.............and I agree w the first comments. BigWheelRecovery said: I'M sure the tow company thought they were towing something like a Dodge camper front unit an traveled out there an this is what they found. We along with every other tow co. are asked how much to tow our camper, it's a small one, when you get there your caught an driving back for the goose you loose.Your driver calls back an you say OWell hook it an then call me when you see how it looks if not to bad come in easy. Now with a ramp truck an a vehicle on the wheel lift the ramp has a long extention from the rear axles so the camper will move up an down quite a bit compare to a wrecker where the wheel on the tow truck are all the way back. On the ramp hook up the camper tail end with hit the pavement if the truck just goes over a slight crown in the road or driveway, that's only a couple of safety problems with this I'll name a few more after other add to it. Thanks BOB visit our new website bigwheeltowingandrecovery.com Sirknucklehead said: At least he didn't put it "on" the bed, I've seen that. Agree with the above posts. hti said: what would you estimate the weight to be on a motor home that size ??? NationalAuto said: My "guess" is 8800# RLC4523 said: No at least in Oregon that length combo would be no different than if it was behind our Medium duty and as for weight I think 8800 is underestimated probably looking at closer to 10-12000# I am guessing that MH looks to be a 24ft or so. Also for that RB to pick that MH the wheel lift would have to be so close to the tail board that there would be little to no turning room and I still can't imagine what the stopping capability would be if any when/if they started down the road. And as for the showing up thinking its one thing and finding out its another we have no problem calling for the correct truck or walking away. The amount of money you would charge for this tow would never cover the potentail damage that will be done to the RB. NationalAuto said: You are probably closer on the weight than I am. We would walk away from this too, on a rollback. Our reasoning would include the damage to our equipment but our first concern would be that with all that weight on the stinger, steering and braking are too compromised to even consider doing this job.

Are you or have you done business with INA. If so what was your experience? http://www.inatowing.com/

03-30-2005: Mark Wrote, My insurance now excludes all dogs period. Now matter how big or small, or if they are trained. Does anyone know of insurance for dogs. It seems silly, but in my state if a thief gets injured (including dog bite ) while burglarizing my business; I am responsible and will get sued. Steve said: Thats a damn shame. seems like theres something wrong with the system when someone committing a felony can sue the victim. Someday, one of these dirtbags is going to figure out its better just to fall off the fence and sue instead of actually stealing something. Ronnie said: You need to teach the dog to kill the burglar, dig a hole, and bury the body in the yard. That will eliminate the lawsuit.... lol... Be sure he digs the hole big enough to fit the lawyer. Don said: Do yourself a favor. Get rid of the dogs. I had dogs at one time. After a few dogbites, my insurance company at the time told me to get rid of them, or they would get rid of me. Get rid of the dogs and let the thieves pillage the yard all they want. The liability of that is less that paying for a chunk out of some fat lady's ass! The last fat lady's ass that one of my dogs bit cost my insurance company $10,000 Ronnie said: Mark…you may want to look into razor wire…Check the laws in your area…..We were having problems with theft all the time until about 8 years ago when we installed it on the top of all our fences and gates. You won’t have to shovel up behind the dog anymore. Mark said: Thank-you for the advice. Unfortunately, razor wire in my area requires special permits. Only prisons and detention facilities qualify. But, I have been training the dog to dig holes and bury the intruders. Only problem is for some reason my mechanic is missing . I think that insurance companies have cowered in the wake of BS law suits. They will continue to reduce their coverage's and limit their exposure while raising their rates. I wish that I could do that too. I would start out by doing what my contacts pay me to do. Then, I would only show up and not tow the car, ( God forbid that could be a risk.) and of course rise my price 20% . Then, I won't show up anymore, I'll just answer the phone , ( Got to reduce the risk exposure even more. ) and then increase the price another 20%. Finally, I won't answer the phone anymore and just expect a check in the mail every month for doing absolutely nothing, and I'll charge an extra 20% then too ! I think I'll just get an alarm system and take the dog home and make him the family pet . Do you know of anyone that offers dog insurance on a home owner's insurance???; Because mine won't take on the risk .

This Owners Den will not remain for long. The Owners Den can now be found in Clubs, click Browse click Clubs and then you can request to join the club. The Owners Den is returning to a Supporter Level Forum, members will need to be a Patron or Sponsor. Then verified company owner or manager, drivers have a separate club level forum that does not require a supporter status. Though it may require a minimal annual donation to the survivor fund for those who are not supporter level members. Is that reasonable? Oh, Owners with more than 10 years on Tow411 can request a supporter level waiver access to the Owners Den. Supporter Level Info There is also a supporter level membership portal via the store link. Keep in mind, All of this is being created ahead of our original schedule. In the continuing development of the New TowForce supporter levels can be found at http://www.towforce.net/store/category/1-subscriptions/ There is now more than one payment option. Thank you for your support, without you this is not possible.

01-09-2018: myerstowing wrote, I was looking to see if there is any current census data in regards to how many tow truck operators are employed in the United States. In comparison to other dangerous occupations, the statistics are compared in a per 100,000 workers formula. It is hard to compare the danger of the towing industry when there isn't a good number for comparison. For instance the easy ones to find are; truck drivers 3.5 million (multiple sources), 750,000 sworn police officers, 1,160,000 firefighters, 245,000 paramedics and so forth. Do you think we are categorized under truck drivers? In California our Workers Compensation code designates a class for "towing" so why isn't there data in regards to the number of tow truck operators? KL said: Here's a slightly educated guess. By NAICS code #488410 there are 18,939 tow companies in the U.S. By NAICS 4 digit segment #4884 the companies within that segment average 8.5 employees per company. So best guess would be 18,339 x 8.5 = 155,882 tow company employees. Of course this number does not capture data from companies whose primary business is not towing for example a body shop or trucking company nor does it differentiate between types of employees i.e. drivers vs. dispatchers, etc. MaP said: Latest figures I could find are for second quarter 2017, NAICS code 488410 "Motor Vehicle Towing." For total U.S., there are 9,258 towing businesses employing 62,707 with average weekly wage of $725.

01-11-2006: Ed Barker Wrote, Just was wondering if anyone has any history and pictures of HUBBARD wrecker bodies.If you do I would love to see some posted . Thank You. Chaser8003 said: We had one. That thing was bad to the bone!!!! I think she lives somewhere by the kentucky-tennessee line. We sure do miss that thing. 75 International fitted with 89 Hubbard. Autorescue said: Floyd's always has interesting units! Buddy Corgan said: That thing is down right cool, Chase! hdtowman65 said: I luv it! That is one tuff lookin truck. Towboy88 said: Interesting unit. Can we get a Floyd's fleet picture sometime?

02-17-2006: Originally posted by Spanky 1948 GMC COE, Holmes model 515. VintageTruckNut said: love the old coe we several macks one 1953 big job 750 ford you saw picture 2 yr ago i am sorry ihave not got in touch too busey getting more old iron ithink were at 25 trks still looking. vintagetrknut. Spanky said: I thought it was kinda odd for a Chrysler Dealership, having a GMC Wrecker, instead of a Dodge. Lol

01-10-2006: Written by InTowMan, ...if you could save money on insurance? Here is an interesting article on some trials being conducted in the US and UK...what are your thoughts? For a price, would you let car insurer along for the ride? The entire technology industry is about to go down the toilet as a bursting real estate bubble crushes the world economy. But that's OK, because I just found out how much I can save on my car insurance ... Couldn't resist. Actually, this is more about how technology is going to change the whole idea of car insurance - and how most of us eventually will let insurance companies monitor every move we make in our cars. We'll do it for the same reason we happily use those little grocery store discount cards, which let the grocery store companies monitor every item we buy. That reason is money. Give us a price cut, and we'll give up some privacy. As long as it seems like a fair shake, we're usually on it like seagulls after a dropped Cheeto. Mass car monitoring is still years away. But it's been one year since the launch of two key tests - one in Minnesota and one in the U.K. - that use technology to track aspects of driving. Based on results of the monitoring, drivers can get discounts on their policies. Both tests are going well enough that they're now being expanded. And here's an interesting twist: The monitoring seems to be getting people to drive more safely - not because they're afraid of repercussions, but because they're motivated to get bigger discounts. So instead of red light cams and state troopers with radar guns, maybe the way to get people to obey the rules of the road is to pay them to do it. Big insurer Progressive launched its trial, dubbed TripSense, in Minnesota last August. Customers who sign up are mailed a device the size of a Tic Tac box with instructions on how to plug it into the electronics under the steering column. The gadget tracks only two things: speed, and the day and time a car is being driven. Customers know upfront what behavior brings discounts. For instance, the less the car's speed is above 75 mph - the top speed limit in Minnesota is 70 - the bigger the rate cut. The discount also is bigger if you don't drive at the most dangerous times, such as right after the bars close on a Saturday night. Every few months, each customer unplugs the device and uses a USB cord to hook it into a PC and download the information. As a hedge against fears about Big Brother, Progressive allows the customer to see the info and decide whether to send it in. If you've been driving like Batman during a chase scene, you'd get no discount anyway - so hit delete and just pay the standard amount. About 4,800 Minnesotans are using TripSense. Their average discount is about 12%. Progressive is starting to roll out the test nationwide, hoping to get up to 15,000 participants. "We're still in research mode," says Progressive executive Dave Huber. In focus groups, the company is finding out some interesting stuff. "Participants are more aware of their own driving," Huber says. "They're certainly more aware of their speed. To a person, they say that when they hit 75, the foot comes off the accelerator." However, people seem to have less ability to alter when or how much they drive. Like Tracey Cochran of Rochester, Minn., a night-shift lab technician at the Mayo Clinic, who talked with me about trying TripSense. He drives home from work at the riskiest times, so he rarely gets a discount. "I learned I drive well - it's just at the wrong time of day," he says. When I ask Cochran if he has fears about his privacy, he says, "No, not really." The test in the U.K., though, pushes the concept of privacy to a whole different level. Using technology developed by Progressive and IBM, British insurer Norwich Union has been testing a program called Pay As You Drive. The device includes global positioning system (GPS) technology, plus wireless capabilities so the device can constantly send your driving data directly back to Norwich Union. Users don't get to see their info first and decide to send it in. Norwich Union's system not only monitors when and how fast you drive, it also sees WHERE you drive. If you tend to regularly park behind an adult book store in a dangerous neighborhood, Norwich Union will know. Presumably, the worst consequence is you won't get much of a discount - and such information would never be subpoenaed for, say, a divorce hearing. Norwich Union recently started testing a way to offer this technology to parents of teenage drivers, who typically have car insurance premiums that look like the budget for a NASA mission. If the teen has his or her own car, Norwich Union can use its device to charge for insurance based on usage. Drive safely in the daytime and pay about 10 cents per mile. Drive after 11 p.m. and pay about $2 a mile. A lot of Americans might say they're aghast at Norwich Union's monitoring. But what if you're a very safe driver and you feel that - because actuaries throw you into a pool with all the lane-shifting, speeding, road-raging dregs of humanity - you unfairly pay for others' recklessness? Would you accept a monitor in trade for a much lower bill? Wouldn't you feel better knowing that the guy who cut you off going 90 mph will have to fork over a lot more cash for the privilege? What if monitoring coaxes millions of people to behave better on the roads, making everyone safer and ultimately bringing down all insurance costs - and making it less likely that your kid is going to die in a highway pileup? It seems unlikely that any U.S. lawmaker would ever dare force car monitoring on us, but a decade from now, we might find ourselves buying into it, one person at a time. Then, like those grocery cards, suddenly car monitors could seem as common and acceptable as house keys. By the way, did you know that in Finland, taxis have tiny video cameras that monitor the passenger compartment? But we won't even go there. At least not yet. Kevin Maney has covered technology for USA TODAY since 1985. His column appears Wednesdays. Click here for an index of Technology columns. E-mail him at: kmaney@usatoday.com. www.usatoday.com/money/in...ring_x.htm Anaron said: (Now Retired) Absolutely not! Insurance companies are just looking for another way to avoid paying claims. There is no such thing as saving money on insurance. They are going to make the amount of money they desire regardless. If I remember correctly, a few years back an investigation of the insurance industry showed that insurance companies were making a huge profit on insurance writing but were losing large amounts of money on investments. Increases in insurance premiums were to offset their investment loses. Granted, there are areas in which the insurance companies do lose money but isn't that what insurance is for - to spread the risk over a much larger area? Not any more! If the claims are too much or too frequent, they simple quit writing that particular insurance or inact exhoribant premiums on that segment. Laws requires us to have insurance but is very lax in the requirements of how insurance companies should perform. Each and every year more and more EXCLUSIONS are added to insurance policies. Instead of insurance companies monitoring us, we should be monitoring the insurance companies. It is rapidly becoming the norm for insurance companies to exclude "things" they should be covering. When I became a tow company owner in the early 80's, one policy covered the tow truck, liability, cargo, the complete operation. In the mid 80's, every year the insurance industry would come up with a NEW policy we must have because we were not covered for such and such! Now, I must have a separate policy for tow truck liability, damage to tow truck, cargo insurance to protect while towing, a policy to cover while hooking/unhooking, nonconsent towing, loss of income, etc. etc. Wonder when we will be required to have a policy covering us while we are fueling up? Back in the old days, you would pay a certain unsavory group a "protection fee" to protect your business, most of the time from the very group you were paying. Not much different today!Ron Burnes Reply by Kelly - Fred's Towing - Stevens Point, WI (No Longer A Member) I don't know about monitoring our tow trucks, but I do have Progressive Insurance for my personal vehicle. I am participating in the Tripsense program. The paperwork that I approved states that I get $50 for every 6 months I keep Tripsense in my car. Also, it states that the information compiled can not be used to raise my insurance rates. It seemed like an okay deal for me. Maybe at some point I will regret having my insurance company know exactly how far I travel and how fast I do that, but for now, $50 is $50. Gerry Sienk said: Insurance companies are in business to make money, not pay claims. I saw a insurance company report back in 1998, the report produced by the insurance companies showed the cost of all claims on autos including medical and rental and underwriting cost was averaged about $226/year per insured auto. So how many of you were paying that? I know some who are paying for minimum coverge were paying less than a year but that is truly the exception!

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